TOS Update: INODES

[regentronique]

What Slapshotw wrote is absolutely right!

And it seem that writing it once a week is not even enough to help people understand the major importance of personal backups in a different physical place.

Originally Posted by regentronique

Now, if no one can rely on what any HostGator staff write here, then any discussion with HostGator staff as no value at all. And if some other staff member modify HIMSELF another staff post on the forum, just to fit what they need to write to not be responsable of their posting. Then this is really inapropriate to the least...

Are you serious? The post from Dave was made 04/2007, which is over one year ago. He probably forgot about that particular message, as he is, to say the least, very busy. In April of 2007, his statement was accurate and correct. A lot of time has passed since then, and things change.

We updated our official Terms to state we would no longer back up an account in violation.

Now someone states they thought an employee's forum post from one year ago overrides the official, current terms of service. So, to avoid any confusion in the future from anyone else reading the message, I edited Dave's post stating it was outdated and no longer accurate.

I left his original words, and just added a disclaimer. You feel this is irresponsible? Really?

I did not remove what he originally said. Did you even read the message? If you did, what is the problem? If you did not, why are you even complaining about something you didn't even read?

Originally Posted by regentronique

The most important part of this post is : Did HostGator sent the eMail telling Goog that his backups have stopped because of the Inodes count?

This portion have not been discussed by HostGator staff yet...

Originally Posted by Terms of Service

17.) Changes to the TOS
HostGator reserves the right to revise its policies at any time without notice.

Sometimes we do send out emails as a courtesy when we change our terms of service.
Perhaps we should set up an opt-in mailing list where those who want the email for this can sign up, but it'd likely be an opt-in thing and not an automatic, assumed subscription. That's fine, we can look at doing something like that, and it sounds like a good idea. But it seems to me people are conveniently ignoring parts of the official terms of service when it suits them. If there's some confusion about them, or some conflicting (outdated) information somewhere, we can resolve that if it's brought to our attention. But the actual terms are, and always have been, the official word.

[regentronique]

Seems that i have to precise my opinion concerning : "And if some other staff member modify HIMSELF another staff post on the forum, just to fit what they need to write to not be responsable of their posting."

I meant that HostGator seems to want not be responsible for what was writen in 2007 in that same period, i was not meaning now in 2008. Goog was complaining for not beeing advised by eMail, this was related for the Inodes count greater than 50000 in 2007. It was in the period when DaveC wrote is post, so it was supposed to be observed then.

So i hope that these small precisions are enough to help you understand what i meant.

P.S. Yes, i took the time to read your added box in DaveC post before writing my first comment...

Goog's post was made yesterday, unless I'm missing something.

[regentronique]

Seems that you have a LOT of difficulties to understand what Goog and i wrote...

YES, i know that Goog wrote yesterday, but he was complaining regarding a WRONGDOING of HostGator in 2007, for NOT sending him a eMail if stopping the backups or not continuing the backups anyway as stated in the 2007 DaveC post!

I also know that the post was regarding the actual lack of backup for he's current situation, caused by the 2007 situation...

Is it enough clear now?

I just hope Goog would pop in the conversation trying to make you understand!

[skeetr]

Originally Posted by regentronique

I meant that HostGator seems to want not be responsible for what was writen in 2007 in that same period, i was not meaning now in 2008. Goog was complaining for not beeing advised by eMail, this was related for the Inodes count greater than 50000 in 2007. It was in the period when DaveC wrote is post, so it was supposed to be observed then.

As Jamyn has said, Goog originally posted his concern yesterday which was over a year after this thead was created.

Even if you start at the time that his backups were stopped, it was still 5 months after this thread was created. How do you figure that it was "in the period when DaveC wrote is post"??

The ToS is always the main place to find all the information you need. You should ALWAYS re-read any Terms of Service that you have agreed to every few months at a minimum. No other place ANYWHERE do you ever have a ToS where they will not say "We reserve the right to change or amend our Terms of Service without notice to the customer".

It is a protection that any company takes. I bet somewhere in your ToS, you have that very same statement.

As someone who has agreed to a ToS, it is your responsibility to re-read the ToS periodically to make sure you are up to date on any changes that may have occured.

[Quads]

Originally Posted by regentronique

If i can make you less LOST, . . . . .

a) If you exceed the 50K INODES, the ToS *clearly* states what the expected results are or should be. The ToS is there for a reason. People need to read it, and understand it.

And even more chief to the above point:
ii) If you don't do your own backup and secure your data... how much more LOST can you really be?

I'm not trying to start a flame ware here, but let's call a spade a spade. HG is in the business to provide hosting. Not backup or disaster recovery services. Deal with it.

[regentronique]

Originally Posted by skeetr

As Jamyn has said, Goog originally posted his concern yesterday which was over a year after this thead was created.

Even if you start at the time that his backups were stopped, it was still 5 months after this thread was created. How do you figure that it was "in the period when DaveC wrote is post"??

Simple :

1- Dave posted his statement in April 14th, 2007
2- Goog backup stopped in september 2007 with no warning eMail.
3- Next modification to 7b.) in the TOS appended in October 8th, 2007 (Then officially invalidating precedent DaveC affirmation)

The ToS is always the main place to find all the information you need. You should ALWAYS re-read any Terms of Service that you have agreed to every few months at a minimum. No other place ANYWHERE do you ever have a ToS where they will not say "We reserve the right to change or amend our Terms of Service without notice to the customer".

This is abolutely true! BUT, changes in the TOS are not retroactives, then they apply until next changes or official statements.

It is a protection that any company takes. I bet somewhere in your ToS, you have that very same statement.

As someone who has agreed to a ToS, it is your responsibility to re-read the ToS periodically to make sure you are up to date on any changes that may have occured.

I agree absolutely!

I would like to add that Brent, just a month ago, wrote that even if the Inodes are greater than 50000 the databases are STILL backuped! (Contrarely to what is writen in the TOS...)

I wonder if Goog was told that, when he tried to recover his data?

Precision, honesty and fairness are important qualities...

[skeetr]

Originally Posted by regentronique

I would like to add that Brent, just a month ago, wrote that even if the Inodes are greater than 50000 the databases are STILL backuped! (Contrarely to what is writen in the TOS...)

I dont remember Brent saying that. I would love to see the post where he stated that. Do you know where that is? I cant find it.

[regentronique]

Originally Posted by skeetr

I dont remember Brent saying that. I would love to see the post where he stated that. Do you know where that is? I cant find it.

http://forums.hostgator.com/showpost...2&postcount=45

"Everyone's mysql was backed up even accounts that were over the 50k inode limit. On a server of a few hundred accounts it's usually only a few people that go over the 50,000k inode usage. And out of those since were backing up there databases still it's very rare someone doesn't have a backup of static pages, etc."

[skeetr]

Originally Posted by regentronique

http://forums.hostgator.com/showpost...2&postcount=45

"Everyone's mysql was backed up even accounts that were over the 50k inode limit. On a server of a few hundred accounts it's usually only a few people that go over the 50,000k inode usage. And out of those since were backing up there databases still it's very rare someone doesn't have a backup of static pages, etc."

Thanks for that link. I am not sure he is stating that all accounts that are over the 50k inode limit are backed up, but he is saying that on that particular server, that the accounts that were over the 50k inode limit had their databases backed up.

Correct me if I am wrong but databases dont attribute to the inode count. So backing up databases doesnt really create the time to backup as the rest of the site does.

It still doesnt state that the full account that is over the 50k inode limit is backed up. Just the databases. And, it is still only applicable to the server that was indicated in that thread.

[regentronique]

Without debating on all the details i will only write this :

7b.) INODES
The use of more than 50,000 inodes on any shared account may potentially result in suspension. Accounts found to be exceeding the 50,000 inode limit will automatically be removed from our backup system to avoid overusage. Every file on your account uses up 1 inode.

No need to mention that if there is NO backup, the databases should not be backuped, unless there are also other things that HostGator do not tell...

Anyway, i was right in my statement.

[GvilleRick]

The MySQL files are backed up because of the way cPanel backups work. Even if an account is excluded from backups cPanel also backs up the entire /var/lib/mysql folder separately so that all of the databases would be included. I've seen cases where an account backup was corrupted but we were able to save a database since it was backed up separately.

[gwyneth]

Originally Posted by goog

"I am sorry but our backups are overwritten every Sunday by the new backups.". Overwritten by what? How do you overwrite a file with nothing? So, I asked them that question, and this is the response I got: "As for over writing the files I think the way the backup works is everything is zipped up so when it over writes it the whole zip file is overwritten.". Hmm.. that doesn't seem to answer my question at all! You run backups on nothing?

The backup would be for the entire server, minus those accounts that are excluded. From your viewpoint there might be "nothing" but it would be exactly the same as selecting all but a couple of files in a directory, and making a zip called "name". Then, making another zip file called "name"--with anything at all on it--and moving it into the same place as the first "name". The second "name" replaces the first "name".

@regentronique--I believe the main reason GatorJamyn fixed Dave's post here was not so much to prove a point but to prevent future users from resurrecting this thread and citing it, as goog did.

IMO, with the dawning realization that his/her entire strategy for safeguarding 50,000+ "critical" files and directories had essentially depended on reading comprehension (the way s/he initially, and incorrectly, interpreted "weekly backup") s/he was grabbing for verbiage straws.

The issue may seem to be the inodes/backup policy changing suddenly last November, but s/he would have faced the identical problem last October if relying on an HG backup made last August.

The idea of an opt-in email about TOS changes is very good.

[MrPete]

BTW, just want to note: if checking your inodes with
find . -printf "%i\n" | sort -u | wc -l

...be sure to do it in the right spot. The filesystem root ('/') is NOT the right spot. On my server, if I do that, there are over 150,000 inodes in use. Most of that is NOT my files. If I do it from my default login directory (/home/<myacct>), then i get way less than 50k inodes.

[Styler]

Hi,

I got a Inode warning from Hostgator today for 2 of my client Accounts under the reseller hosting.

These domains are primarily being used for Mail, with one domain having about 350 Email Ids. The website itself is very small. I think the culprit is the Email.

I found the following issues were there, and tried to correct them as follows :

1. I noticed that the spam boxes were enabled, and people were not cleaning their spam boxes.
I cleared the spam boxes, and disabled them all together.

2. The catch all account was enabled for one of the domains, i disabled it by setting the default account to :blackhole:
I Cannot see the catchall account under the mail accounts. Would it automatically be deleted, or do i need to do something to delete it ?

3. I need one more clarification : Does Each Email constitute 1 Inode, or does the entire Inbox in a POP3 Account constitute 1 Inode ?

Can anybody suggest any other steps that i need to take.

I do not presently have SSH, i will ask for it to support so that i can check the Inodes.

Once i get the SSH access for the primary reseller account will i be able to check the Inodes for each Domain account under me. Or will i have to take SSH access for each of the troublesome accounts to check them ? Hostgator Charges $10 to enable SSH for each Account.

Last, i have been advised by the hostgator Email as follows

"Reduce the number of inodes/files. This change must be permanent; if you have a high number of cache files or similar, and you expect them to naturally exceed the inode limit again in the future, the configuration must be changed to limit the total number of cached files."

How do i change the limit of cache files, and what cache files are they talking about ?

I'm having sleepless nights, because the accounts are exceeding the Inode limit by5X, and i can in no circumstances afford the Dedicated server. I will have to refund their money and close the accounts. These accounts have been the backbone of my revenue for the reseller accounts.

I am not blaming Hostgator for anything, it's just that it makes it unviable for me to buy a dedicated server.

Any help on this matter will be really appreciated.

Regards

Amit Kalra

[seeknulfind]

Okay, I'm not sorting through 5 pages of comments to see if this has been addressed but your new "TOS" totally contradicts your sales page. What you are telling me is NOT what I bought.

"Unlimited" domains
"Unlimited" subdomains

Just these two "benefits" alone are invalidated by the new TOS. How?

Every domain and subdomain must have at least two folders - the index folder and the cgi-bin folder. (yes the cig-bin can be eliminated) plus one needs at least 1 index page for every domain.

So how is that "unlimited"?

Doesn't work. Thanks for nothing.

The bottom line is I believe you should live up to your agreement. You promised "unlimited domains" and "unlimited subdomains". If you want to change the rules for new customers that's your business, but I feel I and other current customers should be grandfathered.

If this is really a huge problem for you then I'd be willing to work with you but having to delete 75% of my files in a week is asking too much.

Andy Havens

CC sales@hostagator - attn: Brent

[regentronique]

Originally Posted by Styler

Hi,

...

3. I need one more clarification : Does Each Email constitute 1 Inode, or does the entire Inbox in a POP3 Account constitute 1 Inode ?

Yes, each file or directory is counting as a inode.

Can anybody suggest any other steps that i need to take.

Scan all your directories, to find how many files are located in each. You will probably notice that you have a lot of old emails and/or image files. You do not absolutely need SSH to do this, a script in PHP could easily do the work you need.

...

How do i change the limit of cache files, and what cache files are they talking about ?

Some applications like Joomla and other CMS are using cache to speedup the access process and lower the ressources usage. You would have to verify how to limit the cache files for those applications.

I'm having sleepless nights, because the accounts are exceeding the Inode limit by5X, and i can in no circumstances afford the Dedicated server. I will have to refund their money and close the accounts. These accounts have been the backbone of my revenue for the reseller accounts.

Reading the TOS should be a priority for all customers. Better to be worry before beeing sorry. Unfortunately, HostGator is not very proactive to inform its customers by eMails or mail about any TOS changes. But you can find some updated information here on the forums.

...

Amit Kalra

If you want to be on the safe side, you could write a script verifying your inodes and emailing you the huge directories names to you and have this script executed once a day as a cron job.

I just hope these informations could help you a little.

[regentronique]

seeknulfind,

many people here consider this to be "Good business practice", to keep up with competition.

Like you, i totally disagree with this kind of "wrong" advertising. But being part of a minority it is not very usefull to mention it...

Brent wrote an article in his blog explaining why he changed his way at doing publicity, maybe you could read it here : http://blog.hostgator.com/2007/10/06/selling-out/ ...

[aftershock2020]

This is CLEARLY a scam tactic by hostgator. I've just gotten notice and NEVER heard of this tos item before. I did a little research and since I've been a member and agreed to a tos without this article in it, way back in 2005 and this went into effect in 2007, I was never notified of it until hostgator " warned " me and wiped my account files clean.

According to my attorney, this is a fraudulant act and illegal on hostgator's part. Yes, they have stated that tos can be changed without notice but in this case, it is wrong because they are listing a " service alteration, " , which is also in their agreement to NOTIFY EACH CLIENT/USE OF ANY CHANGES IN SERVICE VIA EMAIL.

They just hid it in the tos sothat they could get away with it. This is an illegal act to cap their services, which also is a criminal violation - " failure to provide services rendered to a pre-paid account. "

We pay for the FULL access of the space quotas per our packages and they are trying to get it by on a technicality of hiding it in that smoke about the " file can be any size but..."

That's all fine but the problem is in the fact that the limitation of the number of files is still capping the space access within the pre-paid limitation, preventing peak use of the service package any of us are paying for. That's a " restriction of trade "...which means you are paying for a service you can't fully use and in saying such, is infact, false advertisement.

I'm taking this to the Consumer Rights Dept., Federal Trade Commission and the BBB. Anyone canceled on this ground has a claim.

[aftershock2020]

Originally Posted by slapshotw

You're not necessarily screwed. The CMS, Forum, and Gallery if configured a certain way will store all their files and information (and posts, for the Forum), in the database. Those database entries won't take up inodes.

Seeing how databases are only text based and still have to have an image file, you will be hard pressed to pull this one off.

[Ren123]

Why not say: "You can host unlimited domains, as long as you follow the TOS". Why is that a problem?

[regentronique]

It would be even better to write : "You can host as many domains you need, as long as your follow our TOS".

The word "unlimited" is not actually exact.

[Shifty]

The change in inode policy now affects anyone who uses Hostgator for large amounts of email.

With the current system, each email takes up one file, whereas before with the mbox format, the entire email folder would take up one file. This is a huge difference when looking at the total number of files.

I realize the mbox format is quite a bit less efficient for large quantities of email, but with the new system, users are somewhat limited. Most of my email is now hosted on Google Apps now, which is great -- less resources on Hostgator, better efficiency for me.

Oddly enough, it was getting my own email domain without any restrictions that was my motivation for going to a reputable web host (4 years now with Hostgator!).

[CrazyMan72]

i got a notice today also... not sure why but i was deleting a crap load of unused programs yesterday, that could have caused it i did have almost 4gb of files, emptied a few directories that were erroneous and brought it back to 700mb, but then again i could have 50k worth of 1k files that were hacked in and hidden and i wouldn't know where they were, already sent a email to support to help me find the issue, also when i scanned the folders for size my phpadsnew maintenance folder was bloated at 1500mb, couldn't even log into it as it had a table error, so i removed it and deleted the folder, and reinstalled the program thru fantistico, now the long tedious walk of reinstalling the banners, i don't use that program often and it bites my a%% in getting it to work right.