TOS Update: INODES

[Darth Unrivaled]

I already have two accounts, and most of the site I couldn't move because it wouldn't work right due basic limits of two accounts (which are on two different servers).

One question, does this rule apply to Semi Dedicated and Dedicated? I mean if it doesn't I may have HG move my two share accounts into one Semi Dedicated. I mean it may be time for me to do so and have some more freedom. But it appears this rule applies to all accounts (share, Semi Dedicated, and Dedicated) which is why I'm worried about it because they don't state that it only applies to share accounts, and is Semi Dedicated a share account or a dedicated account?

I know Semi Dedicated is still share because its not your own box, and I've ready lot of the limits you get on share is not on Semi Dedicated, but does that included or not this 50,000 inodes?

[slapshotw]

I doubt this includes the dedicated, but I could be wrong. Prob doesn't include semi either, but you should ask the gator staff that replied earlier and post if they answer.

[Darth Unrivaled]

Well I'm not going to send in a support ticket just for this. I hope someone from staff will read this and reply.

[esl]

Howard: Welcome to HostGator Live Chat, how may I assist you?

Evan: Does the new TOS Update: INODES apply to dedicated and semi-dedicated servers?

Howard: Let me check on that, Evan. One moment.

Evan: Okay great. Thanks.

Howard: Not that I am aware of. This is a limit set for shared hosting only.

Howard: Is there anything else I can help you with?

Evan: No thank you. Have a great day!

[Serra]

Originally Posted by esl

Howard: Welcome to HostGator Live Chat, how may I assist you?

A logical solution provide a definitive answer in short order...

[Darth Unrivaled]

Funny I try live chat and each time it just sat there and no one ever came on, so I gave up. The first time in a year thats ever happen to me. Well thats good to know.

[slapshotw]

Originally Posted by Darth Unrivaled

Funny I try live chat and each time it just sat there and no one ever came on, so I gave up. The first time in a year thats ever happen to me. Well thats good to know.

What browser are you using? Sometimes it screws up for me in one browser and nobody will come on, so I'll switch browsers and it'll be fine.

[Darth Unrivaled]

I use FireFox. I've always used FireFox. Maybe its because of the new version that causing the issue or maybe I need to update my Java.

[esl]

Originally Posted by Darth Unrivaled

Funny I try live chat and each time it just sat there and no one ever came on, so I gave up. The first time in a year thats ever happen to me. Well thats good to know.

That has happened to me a few times.

[slapshotw]

Originally Posted by Darth Unrivaled

I use FireFox. I've always used FireFox. Maybe its because of the new version that causing the issue or maybe I need to update my Java.

I don't think it's a Java applet-- just javascript.

I really really hate to say this, but when that happens, have you tried IE/Safari (depending on your platform)? It screws up on firefox with me too sometimes, but when i go to safari it works fine.

[Darth Unrivaled]

I can use IE7, not a fan of IE thought. I generally call in support now as its much faster and I can get to the point right away, cuz live chat always ends up sending me to email support.

[DarkSorrow]

....

user@user.com [~]# find . -printf "%i\n" | sort -u | wc -l
151298

You could store the data in mysql but it tends to run slower than allowing uploads to the directory.

[cjnoyes]

Originally Posted by psylenced

I investigated further and it was definitely the gallery2 directory, specifically the cache directory, which is about 180,000 items.

The purpose of that is to cache all thumbnails/images so it doesnt have to re-create them from scratch (which uses up cpu).

Not sure how something made to lower cpu usage can also constitute a TOS violation, i'm guessing anyone with mid sized gallery installations will have this same issue too.

You can setup gallery2 to store the cache on MySQL

[TerryKing]

Originally Posted by cjnoyes

You can setup gallery2 to store the cache on MySQL

Looks like I better learn that one! Can you point to a how-to or reference?? Thanks!

Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou
terry@terryking.us

[psylenced]

Originally Posted by TerryKing

Looks like I better learn that one! Can you point to a how-to or reference?? Thanks!

Regards, Terry King ..On the South China Sea in Shekou
terry@terryking.us

Surely the database cache will cause more cpu usage than a file-based one.

It seems really silly to have to revert to putting a cache in a database which will cause a more dramatic use of resources just to get past a limit to help conserve resources.

[goog]

It looks like my account was over 50,000 INODES, but they never suspended my account. Instead, they just stopped taking weekly backups. Of course, I only found this out because I went to request a backup, and they told me there were none available.

Hostgator, you've really ****ed up here. You've lost a loyal, 2+year customer. If you're going to stop taking backups, at least ****ing WARN ME.

[skeetr]

Originally Posted by goog

It looks like my account was over 50,000 INODES, but they never suspended my account. Instead, they just stopped taking weekly backups. Of course, I only found this out because I went to request a backup, and they told me there were none available.

Hostgator, you've really ****ed up here. You've lost a loyal, 2+year customer. If you're going to stop taking backups, at least ****ing WARN ME.

The whole inode issue has been discussed in full ever since the new inode count went into effect. Either you dont read the forums, or you havent re-read the ToS.

I understand the frustration, but is this really new to you, or are you just highly upset that a backup wasnt done?

Many people have shown their frustration over not being able to restore a backup since one wasnt done due to the inode count, and lots of solutions have been given in order to make sure that there is always a backup of your site. Of course, all of the solutions are to make a backup of your site yourself. Then you never need to worry about not having a backup.

Again, I feel your frustration, but to go somewhere else because of this, in my opinion, is foolish because no matter where else you go, you are still going to have to rebuild your site from whatever files that you yourself have. Why is this one thing going to make you move?

I hope you stay and figure out a way to keep your site either within the 50k inode limit or create your own backups if you cannot stay within the limit. Either way, I think you are giving up on a good thing that you wont find anywhere else.

Good luck to you no matter what you decide.

[striddy]

Originally Posted by goog

Instead, they just stopped taking weekly backups. Of course, I only found this out because I went to request a backup, and they told me there were none available.

Hostgator, you've really ****ed up here.

From the TOS
7b.) INODES
The use of more than 50,000 inodes on any shared account may potentially result in suspension. Accounts found to be exceeding the 50,000 inode limit will automatically be removed from our backup system to avoid overusage.

You need to rethink who is actually at fault here before you go blaming HG. 50,000 inodes may get you suspended. HG chose not to. Accounts exceeding 50,000 inodes will automatically be removed from backup. Seems HG followed their TOS to the letter.

When you can setup your own automated and possibly free backup solution, there's no excuse to not have your own backup.

[goog]

Actually, in the original post to this thread, it says

Originally Posted by GatorRich

The use of more then 50,000 INODES will result in account suspension

Someone even asked if they would stop automatic backups, and GatorDave said they would not do that without notifying the customer:

Originally Posted by GatorDaveC

No we aren't going to stop backing up clients accounts. There has been only 1 case of this a couple of weeks ago which is one of the reasons why we added the inodes section to the TOS.

If infact your account was going to have backups stopped, we would inform you in an abuse e-mail. Don't get worried over this TOS update, if you are just hosting regular sites you will be fine.

Yet, here I am, with no backup, and absolutely no warning. No warning that backups were stopping, or that I had exceeded the INODE limit.

I do database backups manually, but this folder was over 1gb in size, and so manual backups were very cumbersome. I researched it, and HG claimed to be doing automatic weekly backups, so I decided to rely on that. So much for trusting HG.

As I've said, I've been really loyal in the past. I was very happy until now. I even went out of my way to post a positive HG review on WHT in February 2008. I had seen a lot of negative feedback, and wondered why. Now I know.

What makes this even more frustrating is that they claim to have stopped backups in Sep 2007, when I violated the INODE limit. But, they don't even have that last backup from Sep 2007 anymore. They said "I am sorry but our backups are overwritten every Sunday by the new backups.". Overwritten by what? How do you overwrite a file with nothing? So, I asked them that question, and this is the response I got: "As for over writing the files I think the way the backup works is everything is zipped up so when it over writes it the whole zip file is overwritten.". Hmm.. that doesn't seem to answer my question at all! You run backups on nothing? I don't get it. Further inquiry only got me this response: "Unfortunately, we do not have any way to recover the files that are missing.".

Brilliant! Stop taking backups, WIHOUT notifying me, and DELETE my oldest backup. Really, really, great.

This was an extremely important set of files. I've offered to pay whatever is necessary to do data recovery to get it back. But HG is not interested in helping me. They could work on my behalf, at my expense, with a data recovery service. They could mirror the drive and then send me the original so I can do the data recovery on my own. They could just bill me for consulting for a few hours so I could work 1 on 1 with someone there to try some data recovery techniques. But, no, they'd rather just say "Sorry we stopped taking backups without warning you. You're ****ed.".

I'm sorry, but this is a serious offense. I have no problem with the INODE limit, but with the way it was enforced. You can't expect every person to troll the HG announcements forum for ToS changes. HG has thousands of customers, how many of them do you think have read this thread?

I guess the truth is, it doesn't matter to HG if I leave. I'm just one person who got ****ed, and in the end, HG doesn't give a shit, and will continue on without me.

Originally Posted by goog

I do database backups manually, but this folder was over 1gb in size, and so manual backups were very cumbersome. [snip] This was an extremely important set of files. [snip] I'm sorry, but this is a serious offense.

I understand your frustration, but in all seriousness - if these files were important to you, why would you not back them up at all, even once? The backups we run are a courtesy. They are not something you should bet your business, or anything else, on. You should take stock of what's important to you, and take steps to protect that. We back up accounts that fall within our terms of service, and as a courtesy we leave accounts active in most cases that violate those terms as far as disk/inode usage. It sounds like you are angry that we overlooked the violation. Again, I understand your frustration now that you're in a difficult position, but it sounds to me like you're projecting your lack of planning onto HostGator. Backups are always, always, something you should do for your own peace of mind and protection.

That's not to say the system could not be improved. But it sounds like your issue is that despite your account being in violation of the terms of service, you expected a (free) backup to be performed for you regardless.

[goog]

As I said, I researched backup solutions for my files. HostGator policy said that they were doing backups, as part of the service that I pay for. They did not say "We do backups, sometimes, but it's a courtesy". They said they were backing up my account on a weekly basis. I decided to rely on this backup service.

I don't think it shows a "lack of planning" to rely on a backup service that my host claimed to be performing. If you did not claim to provide that service, I would have found another solution.

I see. I have modified Dave's original post. I will also point out that the official terms of service are the official terms of service. If we were to change those terms, the official text would also be changed.

Personally, I do feel it is a lack of planning to take "critical" data and then rely on someone else to back that up. What if that second party (hostgator in your case) had a drive failure? What if that second party had some other unforseen circumstance that prevented viable backups? If the data is important, you should personally take steps to protect it. If you do not, despite your frustration, yes -- I do personally feel it demonstrates a lack of planning on your part, unless the data is non critical. I'm not sugar coating this because I would rather be straightforward with you. We don't (currently) sell backup solutions, we sell hosting service.

With that said, if you are interested in the expense of drive recovery options, please open a support ticket stating so, and we'll talk to the datacenter and see what's possible. It's not that we don't care about your situation, but rather that it's unlikely we'll be able to recover data for your account on the backup server, if it hasn't been backed up since Sept 2007.

[Quads]

So a lack of planning on your part (not doing your own backups and assuming HG is doing it for you, and that will be acceptable) and a lack of effort on your part (not reading and understanding the ToS, regardless) now makes it HG's fault?

You lost me on that one.
I'm just sayin.

[regentronique]

Originally Posted by Quads

So a lack of planning on your part (not doing your own backups and assuming HG is doing it for you, and that will be acceptable) and a lack of effort on your part (not reading and understanding the ToS, regardless) now makes it HG's fault?

You lost me on that one.
I'm just sayin.

If i can make you less LOST, just consider that an official representative of HostGator told everyone on the forum this :

Originally Posted by GatorDaveC

No we aren't going to stop backing up clients accounts. There has been only 1 case of this a couple of weeks ago which is one of the reasons why we added the inodes section to the TOS.

If infact your account was going to have backups stopped, we would inform you in an abuse e-mail. Don't get worried over this TOS update, if you are just hosting regular sites you will be fine.

Now, if no one can rely on what any HostGator staff write here, then any discussion with HostGator staff as no value at all. And if some other staff member modify HIMSELF another staff post on the forum, just to fit what they need to write to not be responsable of their posting. Then this is really inapropriate to the least...

To conclude, it is obvious that Goog is responsible to have been too trusty toward HostGator for his backups, without been prudent enough to have his own because of the "difficulties" to do it. But this do not exclude the HostGator responsability for what "his staff" is writting on this forum!

The most important part of this post is : Did HostGator sent the eMail telling Goog that his backups have stopped because of the Inodes count?

This portion have not been discussed by HostGator staff yet...

To me, both have responsabilities in the situation, mostly Goog, but HostGator cannot withdraw from its own, because of Goog was partly wrong.

[slapshotw]

I just want to add something I've said many times on this forum. You need to have a backup solution that will work if Hostgator were to go out of business tomorrow without warning.

Even if Hostgator had been backing you up, what if they just ceased to be a company tomorrow? What if The Planet datacenter got hit with an earthquake that destroyed every server in there? In general to all customers of any host: if you don't have a backup plan for your important data that is completely independent of your current host, you don't have a good enough backup plan.