Joomla!

hcacree · #1 02-10-2008, 02:19 PM

If I install Joomla! using Cpanel:

(1) Can I leave my current pages as they are and switch when I get the new design working in Joomla?

(2) How do updates to Joomla get done? HG or do I have to install them?

slapshotw · #2 02-10-2008, 02:52 PM

Going by your other thread on this topic, I think you should also take a look at Expression Engine (there's a free core version). You just stick the Expression Engine tags into the HTML you already made for the site, and you'll get all the member and templating functionality.

hcacree · #3 02-10-2008, 08:18 PM

Slapshot,

Thanks for the suggestion about Expression Engine, but if I do go to a CMS, I think I want to stick with one of the ones in CPANEL - even if I load a newer version than is available. I just think that would be more folks using one of those to help answer questions, and that HostGator might be able to help out more if ( ie WHEN) I get jammed.

The biggest reason to change is that I want to enable other folks in the chapter to do some of the website changes. Website updates instead of a newsletter for example.

I'm not a huge fan of sticking everything in a database though. Slow page delivery, dumping old stuff out of database, importing & exporting from database are just a few of the problems I dread.

I bit the bullet though and bought a book on Joomla!. I'm guessing the answers to my questions are:

(1) It depends. (It always does.... :-( )

(2) Website owners responsibility...

slapshotw · #4 02-10-2008, 08:42 PM

Hcacree,

I understand your concern. My recommendation is because I have experience implementing it into sites that are already built; you don't put your code into expression engine-- instead, you put bits of Expression Engine code into your already made HTML.

There's 50,000 members on the Expression Engine forum, and 170,000 on Joomla-- so there are certainly more Joomla users, if that's important to you. And yes, even though it's offered in cPanel (through Fantastico, made by Netenberg, not HG or cPanel by the way), you'll likely want to do the install and upgrades of it yourself. HG won't do the update for you.

For number 1, yes, you can do that. Just leave the current site as index.html, and put the joomla install either in a temporary subdomain or leave it as index.php.

hcacree · #5 02-10-2008, 09:19 PM

I've only got about 20 pages now, so rewriting site in some CMS would be manageable.

When I converted from FrontPage to Expression Web, I also bit off learning CSS and using div's instead of frame and table layout. The learning experience was painful - even though I have a lot of programming experince and experience with markup languages (good old IBM Bookmaster, GML, Script ect...)

I also spent a lot of time playing around with graphics, without a decent graphics editor, figuring out drop down menus, and other eye candy that make the site look cool. But none of those features are real content!

I understand that HG support is sketchy (They won't darken the sky with airplanes flying experts to me - but for $10/month I think they do pretty good!).

I also understand that CPANEL includes Fantastico as a tool. I can't do a count of which CMSs are installed at HG. I just think I'd be smart to choose a popular one so that there *might* be a bit more help availble. Certainly if the chosen CMS is in CPANEL i can plead more effectively with HG for support (Please Mr. Support Guy, after all other people will have this problem too...)

Choosing a CMS though seems like choosing a cellphone plan. There are just too many features and functions to really do a side by side compare. You're waiting to see what bites you.

I really dread trying any move out of Joomla! - for whatever reason. With zillions of tables, it will be a mess to extract all the form data collected. But hey, that will be the NEXT guy's problem, after I make myself a hero for getting Joomla! working. ;-)

Herb

slapshotw · #6 02-10-2008, 11:17 PM

FYI-- you can try various CMSes here:

http://opensourcecms.com/

hcacree · #7 02-11-2008, 12:56 AM

www.cmsmatrix.org has a matrix though outdated...

It does give you any idea of how many CMSs are floating around.

Also gives you an idea of what kind of features/functions you might want....

------------

Seems to be an odd time for Joomla!

1.5 was a major rewrite and a lot of the available plugins won't work with it. Installing an older version of joomla! insures that you are going to have a migration nightmare.

Plugins ARE being updated and 3-6 months from now it will be much better.

You also have to watch that 1.5 compatible is for real 1.5 compatability not 1.5 running in "backward compatible" mode.

hcacree · #8 02-11-2008, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapshotw

FYI-- you can try various CMSes here:

http://opensourcecms.com/

This is a sweet link! I'm going to have to try some of these. I'm sure that I can Joomla! running and a site developed, but I am worried that it is just too capable. Great capability also seems to mean god-awful complexity.

In the good old days Lotus 1-2-3 was powerful and easy to use to chomp numbers. Now spreadsheets are so bloated that figuring out half the features involves a lot of head pounding.

I'm afraid that I need to sacrifice some design flexibility to get a site in which others can easily grasp the functionality to change the content. I just don’t want to be the only one working on the site content. That to me defeats the whole purpose of going to a CMS.

regentronique · #9 02-11-2008, 10:38 AM

I would suggest that you compare the easyness of several CMS for content management before choosing one. Because if you have to spend a lot more time to exlain to the others HOW TO add/modify/delete content, it wont be saving you time...

I also suggest to stick to the most popular ones (Drupal, Joomla, etc.) so a lot of helping ressources will be there for your users and admins.

As Slapshotw suggested you, try them at http://opensourcecms.com/ before investing more time in coding.

hcacree · #10 02-11-2008, 03:06 PM

I totally agree. Being able to actually try them is absolutely wonderful. I've played with a number of them already. None are what I'd call "intutively obvious to the casual observer."

What I surely didn't want to do is to install/uninstall a whole bunch of these on my working website. I'm sure I would have stepped on something somewhere, not to mention the time it takes.

hcacree · #11 02-11-2008, 06:51 PM

Any thoughts on how to install two copies of Joomla!?

One for use and one for testing? I'm a nervous nelly and I don't want to install plugin tools on my active site until I test them.

My club is cheap. Best solution though might be to buy another site just for testing. I could blow it away, or restore from a backup. Might be a good idea anyway since I could use the backup site to receive site backups in case of a disaster.

Disaster recovery?!? what's that?

slapshotw · #12 02-11-2008, 07:00 PM

Create a subdomain off your main domain and install it there.

gwyneth · #13 02-11-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcacree

I'm afraid that I need to sacrifice some design flexibility to get a site in which others can easily grasp the functionality to change the content. I just don’t want to be the only one working on the site content. That to me defeats the whole purpose of going to a CMS.

Some CMSes are better than others for an administrator who wants to build an easy setup for a group of users to add content--but not break things.

Text Pattern and ModX both are worth looking at for this type of use. While many CMSes can do this with add-ons and modules (to, in effect, turn off part of the admin section) ModX is designed specifically to let the administrator design an admin section for the content adders.

slapshotw · #14 02-11-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyneth

Some CMSes are better than others for an administrator who wants to build an easy setup for a group of users to add content--but not break things.

*Cough* Expression Engine does user separation really well!!! And, you can make "stand alone entry forms" with it -- http://expressionengine.com/docs/mod...ntry_form.html . They let you completely design an edit/post page from scratch, only including fields you want and within the design of the site *cough*

I'd stay away from TextPattern for a bit--there's a lot of turmoil going on with that CMS. I use it on a client's site and it's nice, but there's been almost no serious development in quite a while. Much of the community just broke off and created a fork-- xPattern. Hopefully they continue to improve Textpattern as it has a lot more potential.

gwyneth · #15 02-11-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapshotw

*Cough* Expression Engine does user separation really well!!! And, you can make "stand alone entry forms" with it -- http://expressionengine.com/docs/mod...ntry_form.html . They let you completely design an edit/post page from scratch, only including fields you want and within the design of the site *cough*.

I thought it might, but I've not used it and I wasn't sure whether the limited, free version was suitable.

slapshotw · #16 02-11-2008, 11:27 PM

The free version (Core) doesn't allow members with varying degrees of privileges. The paid versions do.

(sorry to keep sounding like an Expression Engine shill...I just really like it!)

gwyneth · #17 02-11-2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapshotw

The free version (Core) doesn't allow members with varying degrees of privileges. The paid versions do.

(sorry to keep sounding like an Expression Engine shill...I just really like it!)

It does sound nice. In any case, ModX is free and the interface and docs actually distinguish between "administrator", "designer", and "editor" (content adder), very clearly showing how to set it up so the "editor" can choose only from approved elements and place the content appropriately.

slapshotw · #18 02-11-2008, 11:56 PM

Yes, modx is supposed to be excellent!

gwyneth · #19 02-12-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapshotw

Yes, modx is supposed to be excellent!

For the OP's purposes--particularly that of getting others to take responsibility for content, not just do some of the writing--I think it's probably ideal.

As some of you know, I'm coming from a similar perspective, with the artists in my co-op. This kind of situation can become a nightmare for the "administrator" who needs something that makes it as easy for him/herself as possible to make it as easy as possible for contributors--in other words, take away their excuses.

ModX is specialized for this. For a one-person CMS, it may or may not be right. But for making an easy-to-use and hard-to-screw up way to corral contributors, it's really worth checking out. You could do a LOT of work with a framework CMS like Xaraya to reinvent this kind of ready-to-set-up setup.

What's especially neat is that the "editor" (content adder) gets to choose from pre-established (by the administrator and or designer) types of blocks, etc. so s/he has what I call "the illusion of design". But s/he doesn't have to think too much, and won't be able to break anything.

It also is extremely flexible about your current HTML--hard to explain, but Matt got into the ways when he was describing Expression Engine (ModX was heavily influenced by EE).