accounts closed after money is given

[mirnitagl]

I read in a few forum about people from outside the USA (and a few also from the US) who have paid in full and then thieraccount have been temporarily suspended until they have benn "verify" Verification involves calling long distance to hostgator office, waiting a long time at the phone to then have an operator ask you for all sort of personal questions. That is absolutely outrageous!
I am from Spain, Europe, and have a 4-year verified paypal account which I have used many times to pay for items and services all over the world, including of course the US. I have never been treated like I had to prove anything to anyone. The info you give when you pay is good enough for all companies...except for this one, it seems.

Here it is a transcript of the conversation I just had with a hostgator operator in which he confirms they make a verification (after taking you money, of course) Something it is not written in the web anywhere.

Chat Transcript
info: Please wait for a HostGator operator to respond.
info: Welcome to HostGator Live Chat! You are now chatting with 'Nick M.'
Nick M.: Welcome to HostGator Live Chat, how may I assist you?
Mirna: Hello! I'd like to ask you a question that's important for me .
Nick M.: sure
Mirna: I have read in many forums that hostgator has the bad habit of accepting money from people from other countries and then ask all sort of verification, including a phone call to their offices or the account is cancelled.
Mirna: and not only that, after they cancel the account, they take a looonnggg time to return the money
Nick M.: We ask for verification from people that are in high risk areas.
Mirna: I am from Spain and have a verified paypal account
Nick M.: Or whose info doesn't match up
Nick M.: For instance:
Mirna: but I don't want to have make any long distance call or give personal info
Nick M.: If you Credit Card says you live one place, and you place the order 1500 miles away
Mirna: I consider that you have no right to ask my personal information
Nick M.: that flags the account
Mirna: My account is from paypal.es, that is, paypal Spain and I live in Spain
Mirna: but I don't want dirty tricks, if you do that, just let people know in your webpage
Nick M.: We do sometimes verify people.
Mirna: I have been a powerseller at ebay spain for 4 years, have a verified paypal account and for me it would be very insulting to be requested more info thatn what's normal
Nick M.: But it's for your security.
Mirna: don't say "we verify some people" that's very ambigous say WHo you verify and in what circumstances, that's more honest
Mirna: no, it's not for MY security
Mirna: hey, I'm just Spanish, not stupid
Mirna: I just want to know: are you going to take my money and then not provide the service right away but to ask me to call you long distance, have me waiting at the phone and ask for all kind of personal info
Nick M.: I'm not sure I understand the question.
Mirna: ?????
Nick M.: It is possible that we will ask you to verify.
Mirna: that was a question, I forgot the interrogation mark
Mirna: oh, that's good to know. I will let every one in my blogs and forum know about your double policy: one written in your web page and the one you don't tell until you grab the dollars
Mirna: Thank you for your time



I'd like someone from this company to answer me why they start a business relationship with a client who pays upfront treating hin/her as some sort of delinquent.

[mirnitagl]

I'm sorry for some misspelled words in my previous message, I was writing too fast and didn't know I could not edit the thread afterwards. My apologies to the readers.

[Adorkable]

Perhaps the language barrier hindered you from fully understanding the Support Team member.

How will they know if they need to verify your account BEFORE receiving the payment information?

The "info you give" may have been obtained fraudulently.


The two reasons listed for double-checking accounts are valid.
1. We ask for verification from people that are in high risk areas.
2. If your credit card says you live one place, and you place the order from 1500 miles away


In my opinion, a long-distance phone call is a small price to pay for extra security.
Good luck finding a different host

[GvilleRick]

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

I'd like someone from this company to answer me why they start a business relationship with a client who pays upfront treating hin/her as some sort of delinquent.

The only cases that I have seen where there have been complaints are from folks who are registering from high risk areas. It is unlikely that you would have any problems, there are a number of regular users in these forums from Europe. Fraud is a huge problem with webhosts that activate accounts without verification.

[gwyneth]

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

I read in a few forum about people from outside the USA (and a few also from the US) who have paid in full and then thieraccount have been temporarily suspended until they have benn "verify" Verification involves calling long distance to hostgator office, waiting a long time at the phone to then have an operator ask you for all sort of personal questions. That is absolutely outrageous!

Originally Posted by Adorkable

How will they know if they need to verify your account BEFORE receiving the payment information?

mirnitagl, if you've gotten info from non-HG fora, it may not be accurate. In fact, there's a really good chance that it's not.

Receiving payment information is not the same as receiving payment.

From what's been posted here, by members and by HG staff, the reality sounds different from the impression you've gotten.

[GatorJacob]

Hi!

When we get a customer who signs up, they go through our Verification System, which pulls ALOT of information.

One of the main things that we look for is the distance to billing. This means the distance from the IP Address (that you signed up with) to the address you signed up with. If it's a big distance, your account will be flagged for verification, your initial payment will be voided, and you will have to call us, or send in the required forms of ID we request.

Once that is done, you will need to repay the invoices, and we will start your account.

If you have any more questions, please let me know.

Thanks for considering HostGator!

[striddy]

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

I'm sorry for some misspelled words in my previous message, I was writing too fast and didn't know I could not edit the thread afterwards. My apologies to the readers.

A few things to ponder over.

Perhaps a little patience at the outset in obtaining an account would be prudent rather than someone having the view of:

- "I want it now or I'm leaving"
- "Don't you dare ask me for any info"
- "Just because I'm telling you that I've had a paypal account for 20 years you should believe me"
- "I'm spitting the dummy"

As HG opens many thousands of accounts, I'm sure they have a good grasp on most likely fraudulent signup scenarios.

If someone gets "flagged" they shouldn't take it personally as I'm sure HG does want your ongoing business, but is being careful the customer is who the are claiming to be.

I don't see anything wrong in HG trying to do the best for you as a potential customer along with helping catch a fraudulent transaction.

Would you blindly accept payments without some form of fraud prevention techniques?

Also, in case you didn't know, you can use Skype to call for FREE from Spain to HG's toll free number.

[mirnitagl]

Well, well, it is obvious this is "Hostgator forum" And opinions are wayyyyyy too different from what I hear in other forums about this issue, very respectable forums by the way, example: webmastertalk. Being from outside GH doesn't mean necessarily being bad or lacking of opinion, quite the contrary, I trust more people from "outside", specially those who have gotten "out" because of a horrible experience such as paying and not getting what they paid for and going thru hell just to at least get their money back.
As for the language limitation, apart from some misspelled words, I don't see people having troubles to understand me and I don't truly have any problems understanding English language. Speaking of language ""spitting the dummy" is a rather disgusting phrase that has nothing to do with me or the way I think. So, please, if you speak from personal experience, associate that phrase with yourself, not with people you don't know.

Having said that. I truly think that this kind of verification process for people who have actually paid, not just say they have paid, just because payment comes from other countries, seems rather discriminatory.
That person who says that making payment is different from giving payment info is probably NOT aware of how paypal works. With paypal when you pay, you pay, because they take instantly (in a matter of seconds) the money from your account or credit card. Being "verified" by Paypal means you have had to previously sent by fax copy of your ID, copy of your working contract, copy of a gas, phone or any important updated bill with an address that matches your credit card,among many other documents. And one goes thru all that painful irritating process just because one thinks it will be done once and never more. What paypal has already verfied and verifes each each year, why must others repeat again?

All of you probably had a smooth troubleless registration with GH after making payment,good for you! but other people, not worse than you or deserving less than you, have gone thru hell due to this GH verification process, that has ended up in most cases with a refund that came 2 months after payment. Excuse me, but you may keep this company and I truly hope it never lets you down.
As for me, they will not let me down simply because I won't let them.

My advice to all of you, try to be for a second in other people's shoes, listen to more opinions than your own and read other forums that might be as interesting and instructive as this one.

Have a nice day all of you, including HG personnel!

[GvilleRick]

I read a lot of different fora including WHT and have worked for a hosting company. I saw first hand how many fraudulent accounts tried to sign up and the repercussions if we failed to catch the fraud.

Unfortunately some honest people may get flagged by the fraud check criteria. At least HG has a system in place to allow purchase if the user provides the requested information.

The folks that complain in other fora may not be completely honest with their experience. I've seen posts railing against the company I worked for and the "facts" they gave were not always completely true. You seem to be interpreting the statement given in chat ("It is possible that we will ask you to verify.") as justifying the title of your post and that is a stretch.

[striddy]

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

opinions are wayyyyyy too different from what I hear in other forums about this issue

The more people you ask about a topic, the more you will learn, good and bad. That's just researching before you buy.

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

Speaking of language ""spitting the dummy" is a rather disgusting phrase that has nothing to do with me or the way I think.

Spitting the dummy is hardly what english speakers would discern as a "disgusting phrase". It simply means a tantrum. Check this page out for a laugh.

http://warriordoc.com/aussie_words.htm#S

Nor did I in any way say you had "spat the dummy." Read my post again.

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

I truly think that this kind of verification process for people who have actually paid, not just say they have paid, just because payment comes from other countries, seems rather discriminatory.

There are people hosting here from all over the globe, and some due to possible fraud flagging need to be verified. Just because they have paid, it doesn't mean they paid using their account. They could have stolen login credentials couldn't they.

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

What paypal has already verfied and verifes each each year, why must others repeat again?

Because HG and Paypal are separate companies.

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

other people, not worse than you or deserving less than you, have gone thru hell due to this GH verification process

How is a verification process "hell?" It's hardly difficult. It's not like you are applying for a house mortgage or doing your taxes. Now they can be hell.

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

As for me, they will not let me down simply because I won't let them.

Seems to me by your language here and in the accusatory wording you used to the HG support person that you made your mind up well before you arrived here.

Don't forget the key in this whole longwinded thread was that from the outset a HG support chat said that you "may" need verification. Not that you would verification.

You have a nice day now ya hear.

[GatorWesley]

Keep in mind this isn't just for customers "outside of the USA", anyone that places an order (that we can't get a of hold by phone) if their risk score looks high we will place a temporary suspension on it until it can be verified. When this happens, we void/refund the charge for the initial invoice as well.

I tried looking up your account to explain why you were put on hold, but was unable to locate anything under your email address or the domain listed in your forum profile.

We don't do this to treat anyone "like a delinquent", we do this to prevent identity theft and fraud. In a business where anyone can place an order from anywhere in the world and have an account ready in 20 minutes, it happens a lot more than you'd think and we need to do what we can to protect ourselves as well as our customers.

[mirnitagl]

It is useless to continue any discussion. I decided NOT to chose this hosting company for my sites AFTER speaking with HG operator and not before.
I started the chat precisely because I always hear the 2 versions (minimun) of a story. The chat was just to confirm that those guy's stories were true and that there was a possibility I might go thru a horrible experience after registering and paying just for being from outside the USA and of course I look for an instant set up account after giving my money, not for such kind of experience.

As for other people's stories and experience, please, have some respect for them, do not just assume they're all a bunch of liers who have nothing better to do than to throw false acussations againt poor innocent Hostgator. C'mon!

Regarding how "horrible" the experience may be or not, you better read what happened to these guys and then judge, not talk about something you have not even read. I'm very sorry that in USA getting a mortgage, a loan or even paying taxes is considered as a horrible experience. In Europe is rather simple, and the tax declaration gets right to your home all done for you, you just have to agree and sign or make it yourself online and send it with click. Nothing complicated, waiting 2 months to get the money back from a company is a bit more frustrating.

And the phrase "As for me, they will not let me down simply because I won't let them" It is not accusatory, it is simply my personal opinion and a fact: i will not let HG disapoint me because I will not hire their services. Foreigners do have right to think for ourselves and take some decisions...or maybe not???

Good day to you all!

[slapshotw]

Just to clarify a point--being inside or outside the USA isn't what sets the alarm off. You can get flagged if you live within the United States as well. If your billing address is extremely far away from where your IP is located, that will be a factor, USA or not.

[ghpk]

I am from Spain, Europe, and have a 4-year verified paypal account which I have used many times to pay for items and services all over the world

If you have been dealing with paypal since so long, you should be understanding the verification process easily, Paypal also Flags the payment to be verified if they find any in-correct info.

If you have been power-seller at ebay, will you ship your items to a person whom paypal has suspected as fraud or HIGH RISK order.

If hostgator ask's for verification there's nothing wrong, every small or big host or infact a online seller has rights to verify a order before they extend services or products.

This is a forum where most of we the customers are from different parts of the globe, and most of "US" here are pretty well comfortable with the verification process.

I remember when i ordered my second dedicated server i was required to call and verify the order, and I didn't complaint about it,
after all it was for my account security and a process which even i do sometime. and being on a different time zone i drove 10KMS at 2 A.M.
to make the international call.

Don't know how could anyone say Iam existing customer don't ask me questions, or i've been using paypal for x months trust me.

Even today i had 2 existing customer verify themselves with my payment gateway and they had sent all docs without asking me a second question.
Iam a tiny host and even then those customer who were double my age did took the pain with the required and sent the docs to payment processor.

What would guys like you do when some day Domain registration or a renewal would only be done if you have a VALID PHOTO ID Sent ?
will you close your website/business cause your registrar don't believe you are what you were until past in their records. this is not required today but iam sure some day this would be as compulsary it is today for the cellphone connections, atleast in my country.

Also regarding the refund DELAY, its upto your credit card issuer bank on when they credit back the amount, in past i've seen VISA and mastercard took 40 days to credit back the "refunds".

[Adorkable]

Originally Posted by mirnitagl

Well, well, it is obvious this is "Hostgator forum" And opinions are wayyyyyy too different from what I hear in other forums about this issue, very respectable forums by the way, example: webmastertalk.

It's not like we are ALL HostGator staff. We're actual customers.
The fact that actual customers have "wayyyyyy too different" opinions should tell you something.

You claim to have decided BEFORE the chat conversation, but your unpleasant attitude in the chat reveals otherwise.

I have no problem pointing out HostGator's faults (like incompetent support).
I owe them the fee I paid, and nothing more.

But, these claims are less than reasonable.
I did a little searching for these "respectable posts". The few related threads I found were by newbies; people with less than 10 posts who have taken the verification process personally.

[mirnitagl]

I disagree with most of what you say and have my own reasons but won't mind replying. I do think it is useless to engage myself in a discussion when my mind is already set.
This note is just to clarify something, I am NOT a guy. I am a woman. Mirna is a girl's name. Actually my grandma liked very much the American actress Myrna Loyd (I think that's the right name, not quite sure)
And...what photo ID sent are you talking about? God, this just keeps getting weird and weird.
Like I say, READ the true stories and then judge. It's about spending a long time at the phone, calling and calling long distance and not getting solutions, waiting and waiting and in the end getting told "sorry, we'll give your money back" and then waiting and waiting 2 more months.
Refunds with paypal are as lightening fast as payments. I'm not new at paying nor am I new at hosting.
In any case, you have an opinion, I have another one and we both express it freely, that's what "freedom of speech" is all about, isn't it?

[mirnitagl]

here's a real story...probably from a "newbie who lies as hell" right?

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=701017

[mirnitagl]

another lier's story:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=5156980

[mirnitagl]

another verification sad story:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=697081

[promni]

Just because you're using a paypal account that has been verified doesn't mean you're the owner. I've been using a credit card that has been "verified" for 15 years, doesn't mean I want them to willy nilly charge it at will, regardless of the billing address.

I think HG does the right thing. If your IP is too far from your billing address then there is an obvious risk factor.

It's the same thing with some credit card companies. If you don't tell them you're going to be out of the country using your card, then your card might get suspended on the first transaction while you're out of the country.

[GvilleRick]

We do get your point, you don't care for HostGator and plan to go elsewhere. Feel free to do so. Best of luck and good luck finding a budget host that does not have similar "reviews" from disgruntled ex-clients.

[RainbowViper]

Mirni, since you're freely expressing your opinion, here's mine:

I've been a Hostgator customer for several months. I'm also quite aware of the degree of fraud that occurs on the Internet, and that problem is world-wide INCLUDING the USA. I also checked a number of websites, besides this one, before making my decision to do business with Hostgator.

Complicating the problem you are having, is the fact that there are countries wherein their Governments actively fight to prevent fraudulent activity, and countries wherein their Government actually participates *IN* it.

I have NO idea where the Government of Spain falls within that range, and am not suggesting that Spain is one of the countries where its Government turns a blind eye to such fraud. I'm only pointing out that there is NO single set of rules that regulate the Internet. And that complicates the problem of Global Commerce, as I'm sure you'd agree.

You said you're from Spain. OK, first, your English is a LOT better than my Spanish (which, if you heard it, would probably make you howl with laughter), but there is still somewhat of a language barrier in this entire thread.

Second, if (and I stress *IF*) you live in a country where its Government can't, or won't, actively try to prevent fraudulent internet activity, please explain why Hostgator should take the risk of being defrauded, when it has little to no chance of recovering its losses? As was said, Paypal and Hostgator are two different companies, and operate in completely different ways. It's invalid to make any comparison between the two.

Third, all along it's been stressed by both Hostgator, and the members within this forum, that you *MIGHT* be asked for verification, and if so, your initial payment transaction is IMMEDIATELY cancelled/voided and your money refunded through its payment source. In your case, that means the Paypal transaction would be voided and your Paypal account credited with the amount first charged, until you were verified by Hostgator.

It was said, above, that just because your Paypal ACCOUNT is good, and that you are the verified OWNER of it, that DOESN'T guarantee that the transaction was initiated by YOU. That's what the verification process, IF needed, will determine.

Just for the sake of this argument, let's suppose that it WASN'T you that signed up, but whoever did so actually used YOUR Paypal account to pay for the sale? Wouldn't you be (very justifiably) angry at Hostgator for NOT verifying that the transaction was valid? I certainly would be!!

And I do have to ask, given that you live in Spain, why haven't you used a Host *IN* Spain? Are there none there who you feel comfortable doing business with? Are their prices too high? Is their service unreliable?

I have no idea what the answers to those questions are, that's why I'm asking.

And I will say that, despite some initial small problems, I have been satisfied with Hostgator overall. And I think you would be, also.

P.S. I believe the Actress you are talking about is Myrna Loy. and yes, it's a beautiful name, and she was a stunningly beautiful Lady.

[Adorkable]

It is clear you're being fueled by emotion, rather than reason.

Why else would you start a post:
I do think it is useless to engage myself in a discussion when my mind is already set.

Then proceed to not only publish the "useless" post, but follow it up with 3 more.



Yes,
When I view a thread and all the newbies are complaining. While the "Premium Members" or "Web hosting Masters" are for HostGator. I see a red flag

I shifted through the "stories":
1. As I implied in my previous thread, the Support Team needs work. The response times are high, and not all the Team is knowledgeable.

2. HostGator has hundreds of thousands of customers. I doubt they train their staff to pretend "they can not hear". In order to swindle pocket change from people.

3. A scanned driver's license or passport is not an unreasonable request. You trust the company enough to give them money and/or credit card information. But, can't provide the other information?

4. I don't see where a refund took "more than 2 months". But, it is not uncommon for a refund to take awhile.

[ghpk]

I wish any moderator sees this thread and decide what to do.

If money is still not refunded check with your bank before saying your host has not re-funded you

[mirnitagl]

Rainbowviper, I wish all the people I have talked to about this issue were half as clear, polite, unbiased and friendly as you are. From a scale of 1 to 10, I give an 11 to your reply, lol
I do understand the purpose of verification yet if I'm kept long at the phone and waste my time and finally got no solution, then what's the point? if it's all a matter of taking chances, well, I do not want to take chances, blame me for that. I can't wait for 2 month let alone more than 2 months for getting my sites hosted. I can't tell my clients to wait for me to come back online,it's not serious.

Yes, Myrna Loy is the correct name, I think it is an actress from the 1920's or 1930's. I hope that apart from being beautiful she was also a good actress.

Thank you for your compliments on my English, I do my best to improve it each day. I am sure I would not laugh at your Spanish at all since I have given Spanish lessons to British children who would not know a word in Spanish. Lovely experience!

Spain, as a member of the European Community, follows and supports all campaings against all form of frauds, as a memebr and as an indiviadual country. In fact, and this is a novelty here, a digital ID will be soon introduced that will give all sort of information about the owner, way too much info than many people would like to give , and there's a whole debate open about up to what point this hinder's a person's privacy. Thanks God it is not compulsory and it's very very new.

As for hosting companies in Spain, they're very expensive and most of my sites are built for US or UK users. I was hoping also to take advantage of the favorable exchange rate for dollars right now. In euros, US host rates seems like a joke, that's an advantage to take into account. of course, it's not only price I'm looking for.

In any case and since the subject was brought up, would it be better for me in terms of speed and overall service quality to use a Spanish company instead of a US company or location has nothing to do with host speed and the site's performance?